Episode 12 - Withdrawal of Our Senses - Pratyahara featuring Marc Holzman

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Please enjoy this excerpt featuring Marc Holzman on the benefits of pratyahara to connect to the breath and regulate our prana.

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IN THIS EPISODE:

Marc Holzman is a pioneer for deep change who has dedicated most of his own life to unraveling this great mystery. He is an avid Truth-seeker, a playful risk-taker and is passionate about refining the art of living and empowering his students to do the same. Join us in this episode as we explore pratyahara and learn more about the power of breath, Ayurveda, and yoga nidra.

Pratyahara is the 5th of the 8 limbs of yoga and is the withdrawal of the senses where we shift our attention from the outside world -from the noise and chaos – to the inside – and tune in to a place beyond our senses.

What is pratyahara for you and how do you experience it?

How do you bring pratyahara to your students and community?

Yoga Nidra – a form of meditation and a mind-body technique

Ayurveda – one of the world’s oldest holistic healing systems

LINKS & ABOUT

Find Marc Holzman online at:

https://marcholzman.com/

TRANSCRIPT

Note: Please excuse any errors in the transcription.

Recorded intro (00:05):

Yoga philosophy for Everyday Living a podcast to bring the ancient wisdom of yoga, to inform your everyday living on and off the mat. Hi, I am your host Monica Phillips. So often we sabotage ourselves because of the chatter in our heads. This podcast will take you through the eight limbs of yoga with leading yoga instructors and introduce you to executives who have brought yoga into their lives so they can thrive. Please listen, subscribe, and share it with a friend.

Monica Phillips (00:41):

Hello and welcome. I'm so excited to be here today with Marc Holzman, a pioneer for deep change who has dedicated most of his own life to unraveling this great mystery. He's an avid truth seeker. I love that visual - and playful risk taker - playful for sure which I know about your classes and is passionate about refining the art of living and empowering his students to do the same. He leads courses and retreats on ayurveda, hatha, meditation. His Thrive classes are phenomenal. Thrive45 and Thrive75, which are yoga nidra classes. And just this completely blissful experience. If you haven't done it, do it. Marc is a certified ayurveda practitioner and Amrit yoga nidra teacher with over 18 years of experience teaching Hatha and you live between LA, New Jersey, Paris and really teach across the globe.

Marc Holzman (01:32):

This is true. Although with the pandemic I've been sort of just magnetically right into one place, which is not a bad thing.

Monica Phillips (01:41):

The globe has come to you because we find you where we are.

Marc Holzman (01:44):

Listen, I have to say Monica for, for schlepping my suitcase around the globe for 10 years, there was a bit of a payoff. And in some way, I was able to sit down and not have to get on a plane.

Monica Phillips (01:57):

I hear that silver lining right there at the slowing down. Well, and this is the second time you've been a guest on my podcast. I'm so excited to welcome you back. I guess I had found you online. Gosh, I don't know, years ago I started taking your classes on YogaGlo. And so when I launched my podcast and I wanted to do an episode on yoga, you said yes and I was so excited.

Marc Holzman (02:18):

Yeah. And happy to come back because you're really mindful. And you ask really good questions.

Monica Phillips (02:23):

Thank you. I like to be as curious as possible. So I'm glad to hear that it shows. You have this five-minute ab routine on YogaGlo, which I do pretty regularly. I love it. You can add it on to anything. Or if you're just feeling kind of sluggish you can do five minutes of core, it kind of energizes.

Marc Holzman (02:40):

When YogaGlo first said the paradigm used to be 90-minute classes only because they were trying to reflect a real live yoga studio. And at that time, most, all the classes were 90 minutes. We don't really find that anymore. Then they suggested that we do 45-minute, 30-minute. And I was like, how am I going to do a 15minute class? But actually it turns out that with attention and with intention and a discipline of time, you can actually get a lot done in 15 to 30 minutes. And they end up being the most popular classes.

Monica Phillips (03:15):

Well, and it's the sense of this human experience we live, which is not the Buddha sitting under a tree for hours meditating.

Marc Holzman (03:23):

Correct.

New Speaker (03:23):

It's hard to fit that into our human lives.

Marc Holzman (03:24):

Exactly.

New Speaker (03:24):

And so even five minutes, three times a day is better than three hours on Sunday. Stephanie Schneider used to always say that. Why practice for three hours on Sunday when you could practice for 30 minutes every day?

Marc Holzman (03:37):

Absolutely. Consistency and frequency

Monica Phillips (03:39):

And routine and mindfulness. I also saw you have a couple of classes I haven't taken yet on Vasisthasana and dinacharya that I'm really excited to check out. And it's a funny story. I'm in yoga teacher training. Tiffany Russo is my mentor teacher. We were talking about various poses and stuff. I've been doing yoga my whole life. Actually my first studio class was in Paris in 1996.

Marc Holzman (04:00):

Wow.

New Speaker (04:00):

My mom had done yoga as a kid, so I was always aware of it. And I had card decks and Yoga Journal subscriptions. But yeah, my first studio class wasn't until I lived in Paris and then I moved to Washington, DC and had a regular practice there. And then I found out about Urban Flow and when come and take classes with Steph Schneider and Rusty Wells, when I'd come to visit San Francisco, and then I moved back to the Bay area. When I divorced, my son was two and going to a studio was a luxury. So YogaGlo was really a saving grace for me to allow me to bring all of my favorite teachers into my living room. And I've never taken your class in person because we're never in the same place. So that gift is phenomenal.

Marc Holzman (04:44):

And for all those, all those brick and mortar studios, which are so vital because they bring a community together. I think online yoga was never meant to replace those studios because there was such power in, in practicing as a Kula, as a community. It really is great to have, but I understand now that it takes a lot of time, but by the time you drive to a studio, chit chat a bit, do your class, talk a little bit more, da da, you know, you can, that can be like two and a half hours out of a day. If that's going to prevent you from doing yoga, then better to turn on the computer and have a tutorial and be led because it's evolved from just VHS and DVD tapes.

Monica Phillips (05:26):

And the location and the travel is a really big part of it.

Marc Holzman (05:30):

Not everybody lives close to a studio. Unless you're in a city or a town that has that there was no other alternative.

Monica Phillips (05:36):

I wanted to mention, too. You have this signature Ayurveda class that you've been leading since 2012 evolutionary habits. Cause we're going to talk about Ayurveda.

Marc Holzman (05:44):

We'll probably talk about ayurveda when we talk about the senses.

Monica Phillips (05:46):

And you're the founder of Guerrilla Yogi, which is super cool. Donation-based community classes that started in Santa Monica, right?

Marc Holzman (05:53):

Actually, I, I took my first class as a student with Bryan Kest, he was a teacher and he had this donation model, which then I took and did in Hollywood on the East side. And then I bring it pretty much to every city I live in. I like the donation model, at least as part of what I do, because I don't think anybody should ever not do yoga because they can't afford it. And yoga can be very expensive. And you don't find yoga studios opening up in places where people can really use it. I just found the donation model to be a nice way to kind of level the playing field.

Monica Phillips (06:27):

That's another conversation on this podcast, which is access to yoga. Not about being for skinny white girls, but really for everyone. And for all bodies, I used to love vasisthasana. I could care less about doing it now, but while on vacation last week I took a 45-minute yoga class online and I did vasisthasana. I had a shoulder injury seven years ago and I did it and it felt great, but it was different. What did I do differently in the sequence that made that feel great? I kind of want to explore your vasisthasana class and see maybe a series of warm-ups that I need to do to help my shoulder. Maybe it's how I slept. I have no idea.

Marc Holzman (07:03):

Or maybe a type of yoga. Cause I know that sometimes when I take a flow class, there's not a lot of granular instruction for better or for worse. I've always mixed up what I do with some Iyengar classes for the alignment so that the flow is a little bit more or some people bring good alignment within the flow. So there's a proper setup, anatomically you're ready to do that vasisthasana. And as long as that vasisthasana brings you to a bigger, something bigger.

Monica Phillips (07:33):

Like Pratyahara.

Marc Holzman (07:33):

Withdrawal of the senses, actually, is quite, quite easier to do in meditation or yoga nidra where you're manipulating your own environment a little bit in a dark room, in a quiet room, in a warm room and you're covered. You can actually physically subtract the stimulation of the senses. It becomes a little bit more difficult and challenging, which is one of the great things of yoga in an Asana class to begin to turn that, that attention and your senses inward when music is playing, when someone's breathing on your back, in Warrior 2.

Monica Phillips (08:10):

My yoga journey has been so interesting and I've noticed these pivots. And in 2014, I had a really great pivot because I was, at this time I had started my business. Everything in my life was ease and flow and I was so open to everything that was possible. And so I noticed a lot of pratyahara in my life then, and then in 2017, I went to the Sivananda Asram in the Bahamas for a week, so I wasn't there long-term like some people had been there for three months and were doing karma yoga, all kinds of different practices.

Marc Holzman (08:37):

Even a week is a luxury though, right.

New Speaker (08:37):

It was incredible. It was a gift. And I realized yoga in this totally different way, which is not what I was expecting because I was used to fast, hot, sweaty workout, yoga. I'm going to be thin. I'm going to exercise. Then I'm going to have this sweet Savasana and then walk out.

Marc Holzman (08:59):

Sivasana as if you were Sivananda

Monica Phillips (08:59):

So I get there the first day. And it's 5:00 AM, wake up, the bell rings, come meditate, then do yoga, then eat breakfast. And I wasn't expecting this deep need for me to let go of this fast-paced world I had left behind. I really didn't know that that's what I would discover about myself. And I did. I discovered how to do that.

Marc Holzman (09:20):

Listen, and it's not, it's not just you not to take away from your unique experience, but after doing this for almost two decades and seeing students and having my own issues, I had one heart surgery. I have evolved into a teacher and also I'm getting a little older. So I also can't do some of the things that I did even five, 10 years ago, without doubt, is that the way the body heals, regenerates, recovers, rejuvenates is in stillness. Is in rest and repose, is in restoratives. It doesn't mean that that your traditional hatha flow is not good. I mean, there is a very important need to engage the body in that way. What I find though is that that's the only way that people are doing it. And I know that we live in a culture that is doing, doing, doing, and instead of being, there's a lot of doing and fulfilling and striving and goals. And what are you doing now? And we're sort of exhausted every time I've taken a restorative retreat or teacher training or nidra, I walk out feeling like a million bucks.

Monica Phillips (10:36):

Spot on and it's hard. It's hard to learn.

Marc Holzman (10:40):

It's hard to get people if they're not used to it and to get into Ayurveda, if they're, if they have a natural constitution of Pitta, which is fiery and achievement-oriented, it is really difficult for them. And most people actually to just give in, surrender, and just lie there and do nothing. Hardest thing of all.

Monica Phillips (11:05):

So let's really examine this Pratyahara. I love this. It's the fifth limb of the eight limbs of yoga after Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama (Breath), and then Pratyahara, which is really withdrawal of the senses. And actually Ahara. I looked this up. Ahara means food or something that we ingest. And I want to hear your version of that as it relates to ayurveda, and then prati, which means from, or against as in moving in the opposite direction. So really moving away from these physical senses that we have.

Marc Holzman (11:37):

Food. It can be not only just food that you eat, but when we talk about, for example, the five koshas, the five bodies that we're born into five bodies, we're not just a physical body or a physical body. We're an energy breath, body, we're a mental body, a wisdom body, and a bliss body. That outer body that we're most acquainted with. Cause we hang out a lot in our physical bodies, I'm talking about skin, bones, muscles, all of that. That's actually called the food body. The Anamaya kosha is the food body. So food can refer not only to food that you eat, but it refers to the body itself, the most physical, the most, the most surface level of existence. So to turn inward from that is super important. And it also has a different, it has a different meaning, depend on which philosophy you're looking at.

Marc Holzman (12:32):

I was wondering if I could read just a few lines from one of my favorite poets.

New Speaker (12:38):

I would love that.

Marc Holzman (12:39):

His name is John O'Donohue. He is an Irish poet, and it's just a little something about the senses. He talks about transfiguration just as a side note. Transfiguration literally means when you take something in a certain state that it's in and you bring it to a more beautiful and refined state, so to take something as it is, and then you kind of dust it off, work it, and the result is a more radiant refined. The state of what that thing is, that's transfiguration. So he says a renewal, indeed, a complete transfiguration of your life can come through attention to your senses. Your senses are the guides to take you deeper into the inner world of your heart. The great philosophers admit. And so do Ayurvedics, doctors. The great philosophers admit that to a large degree, all knowledge comes through the senses. The senses are our bridge to the world. Human skin is porous and the world flows through you through your senses and through the attunement and refinement of the wisdom of your senses you will never be an exile in your own life.

Marc Holzman (14:01):

The reason why I love that in this it's a celebration. I just thought it was important to bring up this celebration of the beauty of the senses is because even when we speak of Pratyahara and certain forms of yoga, like classical yoga, there's a little bit of a prejudice against the senses, meaning the turning inward of the senses, which all philosophies will point to as a way to go deeper within just articulate that we have parts of classical yoga, which is a, we say is a renunciate form of yoga where the outlook of life and humanity is considered a problem.

Marc Holzman (14:43):

In other words, the fact that you're born into a human body is some sort of karmic punishment because you didn't get it right. All of these other times you are in effect punished by coming back again in this flesh bag and going through it again until you get it right. So there's a little bit of a, of this prejudice that the body and the mind and the senses are an obstacle to enlightenment, that they are an obstacle to freedom. And so the forms of yoga that are associated with these practices tend to be a little harsh. They might subjugate or punish the body a little bit, or the tone of the teaching might be very militaristic. And, and it's all of this sort of see if we can bind the body and kind of punish the body a bit so that we can release spirit and find the revelation of Moksha. And that's one philosophy. It's actually a beautiful philosophy. The thing is it's hard to do that if you are a human householder, that's living in this world. You can't give up worldly things.

Monica Phillips (15:54):

And like there is this sense in yoga, that there's a full prakriti and parusa, fully letting go of attachment to your death. And like that is really, I think, a big ask for most humans, letting go of being present here in this body, really calls to the sense of faith. That there's something that we are being called to believe in that we can't see, touch, feel, sense, taste, smell. And I love the poem you read because as a coach, I really have stepped into heart-based leadership because I coach these hyper-achieving, super active, busy revenue-driven executives. And I help them get out of their heads, break through of, I don't have to be up here. I actually have permission to be in my heart. And I do that through the senses.

Marc Holzman (16:38):

We have the four Purusharthas. Those are our, a script, a Hindu script, which means the four aims of life. The four goals of life, the four goals of happiness. You have Dharma, you have Artha, we don't have to get into it, there's Moksha, but one of them is Kama like the Kama sutras, which doesn't mean just sex, which it has been kind of taken out, but it means central pleasure. It means the love of music and art and yes, sex and all these things that bring you if, if disciplined and if directed in the right way and not overindulged to bring a human great happiness. That's why it's one of the four goals of, of happiness.

Monica Phillips (17:22):

What I've noticed in yoga is that when I, whether it's yoga nidra or asana practice, I get to withdraw my senses. And then I get more in touch with my senses. I actually notice them more.

Marc Holzman (17:38):

Yes. Do you notice them more when you're in the process of the meditation or nidra or do you mean when you come out of the meditation?

New Speaker (17:44):

After, afterwards.

Marc Holzman (17:45):

You bring up a really interesting point, Monica and it's, and this is sort of an ayurveda thing as well. And as it said here, as I said, the great philosophers, admit that to a degree, all knowledge comes through the senses. Ayurveda and yes, yoga and most philosophers and doctors will say that our senses are directly connected to our mind. We absorb everything through our five senses and then they go in and the mind makes sense of it. And then it goes to the wisdom body to make a decision. And so when we turn in with the senses, when we do Pratyahara, when we take the senses and gently move them inward, it doesn't mean that the senses aren't good.

Marc Holzman (18:34):

It's just that we want to deprive our mind of the stimulation that the senses bring by closing the eyes and putting an eye pillow over the eyes in a yoga nidra; by maybe putting earplugs in if you live in a loud place. We're actually doing things, as I said earlier, to subtract sensorial stimulation, because what happens is that the mind can begin to relax and let go. When you go inward, there's no judgment on good and bad. We go inward, all go inward with Pratyahara, no matter what, if you're renunciate or a tantric yoga or whatever it is. And what happens is Prana, life force, the life vital life energy is under the control of the mind. If you read the yoga sutras, which this is from in the very first, actually 1.2 Patanjali gives right off the bat, right off the bat.

Marc Holzman (19:31):

He gives the definition of yoga, which is "yoga is the cessation, the stopping of the fluctuations of the mind." And then what we have through most of the yoga sutras are different practices to kind of control and reduce Prana. So we have, this is from ayurveda as well. We have the pranic channels here, running through our body, through the nadis, vital energy. And the mind sits on top of that. So whatever the pranic channels, whatever's going on with the prana, it's going to directly affect the mind. So if the breathing for example, is shallow and fast and awkward and jagged, then the same thing's going to happen to the mind. But if the breathing is undulating and metered and slower, and with rhythm, then the mind can also begin to slow down. And once the mind slows down, the pranic can be released and it can move us even further inward, but it's hard to, and you know, this, everyone, I know with myself, it's hard to drop in, in meditation, which is what yoga nidra is, or just regular meditation. If the mind is doing this.

Monica Phillips (20:51):

Do you find that you can drop in so quickly because of all of your practice?

Marc Holzman (20:56):

Yes. Yes, but I still there, it becomes a learned, felt experience once you do it over and over, not for three hours on a Sunday, but a little bit every day, you start to create these neural pathways where sometimes I'll just sit and close my eyes and I can, I can already feel myself, begin to drop. Whereas maybe 10 years ago it would take me like 20 minutes to even get close to that.

Monica Phillips (21:23):

You were speaking. And I was thinking part of this withdrawal, the senses too, is letting go of attachment to our bodies. And it's very relevant. Now with the new year resolution, I love the sense of renewal around the new year and possibility and hope. And I see a constant stream of, I want to lose weight. I want to get in shape. I want it. Sometimes I'm like, do you, I mean, cause if you really did wouldn't you have done it. Or maybe you don't know how right, but maybe you just let go of attachment to this body. We all have such different bodies. And so appreciating our body is part of letting go of attachment to our, our midline, our arms. We get hung up on things that ultimately don't matter, but it's because we're comparing. And this constant comparison is the chatter in the mind.

Marc Holzman (22:07):

Exactly. And if you don't have some kind of consistent practice of letting go through meditation, through yoga nidra, then listen, the brain is an amazing organ. I get it. But it's also a fricking nightmare. It is so neurotic and it can tell us things that aren't even true about ourselves. If you don't have some kind of practice to drop down beneath the mind, then error that humans make - this is from all yoga traditions - they all say the same thing. The fundamental mistake that humans make is that they start to identify so strongly with their mind stuff, that they start to believe these crazy thoughts that might not even be true like I am too fat or I am worthless or whatever the mind tells you. So in order to have a practice, what happens when you have a yoga nidra practice, meditation, some kind of mindful stillness practice, you can then just sit back and watch this neurotic mind, play out without getting mingled, intermingled with it and just watch it. Those really neurotic lets move in, pass by and go out.

Monica Phillips (23:17):

I love that you said that. I read in a Wall Street Journal article just yesterday about the book, Chatter. We can think as many negative thoughts in a minute as what is spoken in an Inaugural speech over the course of an hour. That's how much chatter, negativity, goes on in our minds sabotaging us literally.

Marc Holzman (23:37):

It literally makes them crazy, but it gets better, but you need to, you need to just keep breathing and remember there is an eternal witness, but an observer. That's what you, that's the true you you're sitting back and you're the container. And you're watching the contents and getting so wrapped up in the identity of the contents. I am the contents and forgetting that you're also the container and you were there before that chatter came in. You're there when it's there and you are still there when it moves out. So to have a, a practice and pratyahara is part of that practice, to be able to withdraw and just let that happen even for 10 minutes a day and give your mind rest, really that cleans the mind body.

Monica Phillips (24:26):

That's just helped me understand it in a whole new way. So really yoga nidra in this blissful state really is noticing the chatter and letting it go, and then realizing I'm still whole, I'm still here.

Marc Holzman (24:37):

Exactly. And the reason why we do yoga nidra on our backs is because it's considered that even when you are sitting up in traditional meditation, you're still doing something even in some slight way, you're engaging muscularly. So the reason why you're on your back is that we're even taking that out of the equation. So you're literally as comfortable as you can be. Body is out of the way. We're trying to subtract away anything that might get in the way of you dropping in. It's not that traditional meditation is not, I'm not comparing because I do traditional seated meditation as well. Usually after I'm lying down and do yoga nidra.

Monica Phillips (25:16):

When I was at the Sivananda Asram, I had a hard time doing the meditation in a seated pose for an hour.

Marc Holzman (25:22):

Yoga nidra, the skill behind it, is eventually to try to go through a whole nidra and not fall asleep because yoga nidra is using the biology of sleep for a spiritual purpose. So the idea is to put the body to sleep and rest the mind. It's really difficult for many people, especially when they're, when they're starting out to not flip over into biological sleep.

Monica Phillips (25:47):

Well, I took your yoga nidra class and I didn't fall asleep. Tell us about Ayurveda. What is it? And how do we connect that to this withdrawal? Because I understand ayurveda as the senses kind of what you identified. And so then withdrawing from that.

Marc Holzman (26:00):

So ayurveda places a very big, ayurveda is India's 5,000 year old health system. So just like China has their own 5,000 year old system, traditional Chinese medicine, which, which I think has a little bit more airplay. Most of that sounds more familiar to many people. India has their own called ayurveda. And I must say that ayurveda can get complex with their doshas and sub-doshas and sub-sub-doshas. And there's so many aspects when you really get granular with ayurveda. But ayurveda is, and very much, there's so many similarities with traditional Chinese medicine. It's really our ability - it teaches us - how to live in accordance with nature. That's it. It's so funny when you were talking about your time at the Sivananda Ashram, what you were actually describing in the daily routine was an ayurveda routine to wake up at that early to that early hour, usually before the sunrise, depends on what time of year it is, do your spiritual practices that early in the morning is considered, it's too much to get into, but doing your spiritual practices very early in the morning, it's considered the ideal time to practice your meditation and your chanting and even hatha yoga.

Monica Phillips (27:21):

Islam has that practice of waking up before sunrise to pray.

Marc Holzman (27:25):

And if you go to an ashram, most ashrams, they keep ayurveda hours. They're going with nature. If you read the autobiography of any spiritual Saint, they all seem to be waking up at three or four in the morning.

Monica Phillips (27:39):

I can't say it would ever be for me.

Marc Holzman (27:41):

In the wee hours of the morning, four or five or six o'clock.

New Speaker (27:44):

Six o'clock. That's good. Six o'clock sounds reasonable.

Marc Holzman (27:44):

It's considered Vata time, the element of air and space, which is considered very, very, the most subtle of the five elements. And when you do your spiritual practices at that hour, because already environmentally atmospherically, there's so much subtlety in the atmosphere that it makes us as these kind of bulky thick vibrations of consciousness to just move into those more subtle realms, a little more easily. In other words, we're taking advantage of the Vata time and the Vata qualities of that time of day for the subtlety of that time of day of air and space, to help us move into meditation a little more easily, because after that, as life gets a little bit thicker, that's Kapha time of day, it gets a little bit more difficult to sit and meditate.

Monica Phillips (28:37):

What if someone is Vata? I don't know how you say it in ayurveda - has Vata or is Vata?

Marc Holzman (28:43):

Has the constitution of Vata.

New Speaker (28:45):

Then would it be possible to do that more easily throughout the day?

Marc Holzman (28:48):

It would probably be more difficult, a bit more difficult because Vatas already - one of the predominant, especially when it's out of balance or just even when it's not out of balance - because Vata is considered the wind, that's air and space because wind is air moving through space. The other really fundamental quality of Vata is movement and mobility. It's not stability. We're always looking to ground Vata to take their two ankles and just bring them down to the ground. That said in talking about routine, it is very important because Vatas are air and space because they can be light and subtle and move into their head. And if out of balance be kind of flaky and forgetful, and they start a lot of projects and don't finish any and third, cause they're like the wind - they go in all directions. It's important that they, especially of the three doshas have a routine because routine is very grounding. The body of all doshas loves routine, standardization,

Monica Phillips (29:51):

Wisdom for parenting, wisdom for professionalism, wisdom for everything in life.

Marc Holzman (29:58):

Yeah. Routine for everyone. It just grounds everything. Our lives already have so much chaos and variables that we can't control that for the things that we can control, like sleep and eating the body does not want to have to guess each day when it's going to have to do that. It loves to know dinner time is, we go to bed at this hour, wake up at this hour, to just to keep that rhythm is very nourishing.

Monica Phillips (30:27):

So I was thinking about the story of A Wrinkle in Time. I could have sworn it was a movie before it came out because when I read it, it was so visual to me. I actually did not realize that it hadn't been a movie yet until the movie was made. And that I thought it had already been a movie, but the book was very impactful for me. And there's a part about - all of the moms' come out the doors at the same time, all the kids' are bouncing the same balls on the street. It's kind of a freaky pattern. Everyone's doing the same thing. But I was thinking, as you're talking about this routine, what if everyone did have at the same ayurveda routine, and then would that make the world less interesting?

Marc Holzman (30:58):

I don't think so because there's already so much diversity in looks and gender and sexual preference and vocations. There's already so much self-expression. Just to be clear when I'm talking about these routines, that's sort of like a template because within that template, there is some wiggle room because Vatas, they can wear themselves out. They can dry out. They could just be moving so much. I mean, maybe it can start a little bit later.

New Speaker (31:28):

That's good news.

Marc Holzman (31:28):

If we need more sleep. Kaphas who tend towards over stability and almost laziness. If it's out of balance, they need to get up and sleep less. So they may start that routine a little bit early.

Monica Phillips (31:44):

Yeah. And there's just the way you express yourself in your movements throughout the day, varies so much.

Marc Holzman (31:48):

So much great diversity. And if we get too wrapped up in the diversity, we forget that diversity is amazing, but we also forget there's an underlying unitary consciousness that embraces us all. Because when we forget that, then we get narcissistic and isolated and alone. And

Monica Phillips (32:08):

What I think is really cool about pratyahara is this vision of it being the gateway to what's next, which is dharana, dhyana, samadhi, self-actualization.

Marc Holzman (32:16):

Yes.

New Speaker (32:16):

And ultimately though I think tied up in pratyahara is what yoga is. It's this getting out of the chatter in our heads, that ability you were talking about to drop into it so much more quickly. How does that create space for what's next in our lives?

Marc Holzman (32:31):

I love that because I'm a great believer in, we all have the same questions that they've had for ages. They even had them all with the Vedas, the most ancient texts, which are questions like, who am I? Where did I come from? What's next for me? As you just said, what's my next stage of evolution? And we tend to look outside of ourselves for those answers to blogs and self-help this and that. And they're all good to guide us, but I'm telling you all those answers are really in here. If you are still enough and quiet enough and attune yourself to those voices and synchronize yourself, I feel like there are messages and miracles and synchronizations happening all the time. If your antenna is not there, they're going to keep, they're going to keep flying over your head.

Monica Phillips (33:24):

A client told me once that I helped her not become someone else, but become more of who she already was.

Marc Holzman (33:30):

Yes! This idea of transfiguration, of becoming more beautiful. It's not to go to the outside to find the beauty, just to keep uncovering and uncovering because there's so much junk, patterning and education that needs to be unloaded so that you can be aware of the awareness of your own beauty that's underneath it all. Just hidden in density. And with ayurveda, every one of the senses has some kind of practice attached to it to make it clean and clear because if your senses are clogged up by 10 percent in any way, your experience of the world will be diminished by 10 percent. I'll just stop there cause I could go on. I'm not gonna go on to each.

Monica Phillips (34:13):

I've noticed that over the years, I've become more aware of noise, more sensitive to noise. I don't know if that's just my ability to be more of an introvert now that I work from home and I do everything online and I can just shut it off. But when there's a lot of this chaotic energy, I think, Oh, hey, could we just slow down and take a deep breath for a minute?

Marc Holzman (34:32):

It's funny because even as you get deeper in the practice and the refinement even of your senses, but even just in a spiritual practice, I've experienced this, it might be sharing, oversharing. I experienced also that there can be a degree of loneliness when you're on a path and doing a certain amount of spiritual work and you look around and you realize that there aren't that many people doing it. And it's been, it's been a lot of work for me to not feel judgmental, angry, disappointed, or lonely, but to actually have this scope that brings some compassion and not in a patronizing way either, but just we have to live in this world.

Monica Phillips (35:12):

And it's a gift you have that with enough opportunities to be in front of the room, leading students, a few will come up and say, I want more of that. Where does that take me next?

Marc Holzman (35:22):

Some get it, some don't, or some will at another time, or maybe even with another teacher. I don't know.

Monica Phillips (35:29):

I've shared this before in 2014, I was at a friend's 4th of July party. It was a weekend, she used to have an annual weekend 4th of July party. COVID kind of shut that down. But in the redwoods, just not far from where my grandmother grew up, my grandmother came to me through a robin that landed on the fence and the wind. I was talking to a new friend, actually, Jessica Thompson, who created the Yoga, the portable yoga mat. But it was this time where I was so open and aware and really self-aware. And I think that's what allowed this experience to happen. And it turns out the next morning.. I turned to this woman I had just met and told her my grandma's dying. And my dad called the next morning. He said, grandmother died. I was in the nursing home with her at this time and she took my hand and she said, I want to go. I want to be free. Those are the exact words that I heard through the wind in the redwood trees. And I understand that for anyone who hasn't had any kind of experience like this, that this sounds totally crazy.

New Speaker (36:22):

Hippy dippy granola.

Marc Holzman (36:22):

And that's me. And I tried to distance myself from it. And I realized there's so much power in tapping into that, allowing that part of me to shine through. And when I went through my coaching training in 2013, actually the people in the room said, we want to see more hippy child in you, more flower child.

Marc Holzman (36:39):

That's part of who you are.

Monica Phillips (36:40):

Exactly. So I'm becoming more of myself and I realized, the gift I give others. I shared this at my grandmother's Memorial service and one other woman in the room came up to me afterwards and she said, you have no idea how grateful I am that you shared that because I've had that happen too. And I think when I tell people, they think I'm all crazy.

Marc Holzman (36:56):

Here's the thing. The reason why you need to do that more is because of what the response was from that lady who identified, and there's a little bit of shame involved. People are going to think I am just effing nuts. I have a lot of different friends. Some would not think that. And some would be like, Oh, you've been... please, but I feel like the world needs that. The world needs you to be more you and you need that, too, for a fulfilling life.

Monica Phillips (37:27):

So I have this mission to create space for everyone to be seen, heard, and valued; for everyone to belong; and for everyone to be paid and promoted equitably. And ultimately I believe that wellness in all of its facets helps people remove themselves from the fear and the doubt, the anxiety, the jealousy, the bitterness, all of those negative energies. And then ultimately that same part all tied up in that is exclusiveness. And so when we can draw in and we can find Pratyahara, we can find more of ourselves. We can allow inclusivity. We can see people fully. We can be curious about the world. We can allow, we give space for everyone to belong. What do you think?

Marc Holzman (38:09):

The reason why is because when we drop into that deep, deep place, there is no difference between us. There is difference between us on the surface in many ways. And the problem again, that, that the great teachers would tell, I would say too, that what humans do is that because we identify only with the surface level in this sort of like, we identify with our thoughts and our clothes. We see so much diversity. We see so much separation. This is the best case scenario is bigotry. The worst case scenario is all out war because we fail to see this, this oneness with all of us. So when we have a practice where we go into the oneness or all of these individual and crusted identity things kind of drop off and we get to just rest on the bottom of the ocean floor, where everyone else, everyone has the same identity.

Marc Holzman (39:04):

And then we come back to the surface because we have to come back to the surface. As you said earlier, I can't spend my entire life sitting on top of a cliff meditating. That's not my life. So we go to these deep depths of our hearts, and then we come back with that experience. And over time we start to bring more allowance, more empathy, more compassion. We start to see less of a separation between us. That's why it's important for the world, for kids, to be doing some sort of meditation to mindfulness. We need to go inward and experience that bliss of, of the one.

Monica Phillips (39:44):

I cannot wait to take another yoga nidra class with you. You are such an incredible teacher. And when you were saying that, and you said to go to the bottom of the ocean, I felt my shoulders fall. And my body relax into my chair.

Marc Holzman (39:56):

The ocean metaphor has been used over and over. It's six degrees. You know, consciousnesses is one big ocean. We are a wave. And the reason why we suffer is because we only see ourselves as the wave, as this life wave form. While we forget that we're part of, we need to be replenished to go back down in the ocean, just for a couple of minutes, a day, to get restored, plug-in into the socket. How else are you going to get restored? If you need a socket to plug into, into source, otherwise it's just doing, doing, doing, doing, doing. And then we have, I feel like everyone's central nervous system and adrenal fatigue, and it's hard to shut them off.

Monica Phillips (40:35):

You're such an incredible teacher and I'm so grateful for your time.

Marc Holzman (40:38):

My pleasure. Take care of your senses. Everyone, scrape your tongue.

Monica Phillips (40:42):

I cannot wait to take an ayurveda retreat with your workshop that you teach, because there's so much I want to learn about it. And I read your blog. I get your emails. I love what you share. And I know there's scraping the tongue, there's ear oils, and I just don't know that much about it.

Marc Holzman (40:58):

Ayurveda loves oil. So ayurveda is really interesting with the senses. In a Western perspective, our sense of care, hygiene seems to be very much about cleaning, like stick a stick, a Q-tip in there, clean, clean, clean. In ayurveda it's more about nourishment and putting just a little bit of oil in to lubricate the ear canal. It's not so much, let's clean the crap out of it. Let's also nourish it. Let's oil it.

Monica Phillips (41:24):

Even in bathing, exfoliating with a loofa, but not using harsh soaps.

Marc Holzman (41:29):

And then putting oil on your body everywhere. To touch your own body. Even just oil is the medium, but you touch your own body and they'll always relate it back to one of the Purusharthas, which is Dharma. It's not just about feeling great. We all want to feel great. It's feeling great so that you can do the work that you're meant to do in this world. Your Dharma, as a coach, can't really do that when you're sick. That's your calling, whatever your soul's mission is, you can't perform it unless this physical body is in good shape. It's feeling good so that you can perform your Dharma.

Monica Phillips (42:05):

We are past your time, but is there anything you would like to share about Ayurveda to kind of pique our interest more on what's possible? You had this incredible journey of COVID and your treatments that you used and how you healed yourself through Ayurveda and I'm wondering, what would you like to most share about that?

Marc Holzman (42:21):

The coping thing is interesting because 10 different people get it. It's going to manifest differently. I still don't know if I got maybe a lesser strain of it, or if I built some equity in this body after years of yoga and good ayurveda techniques and good nutrition. I don't have the answer. I did use a lot of essential oils that I took internally, as well as externally. And that was most of what I did because there's really nothing you can do except rest. That's the whole thing. The body knows what to do. When I had my heart surgery, I didn't do anything. I just lied in the bed. After my chest was cut open literally with a saw. I know it's gross, but with the sternum open and I did nothing just like when you cut your finger and the body has this supreme intelligence of knowing exactly what it needs to do. It just happens on its own miraculously, but you got to get out of the way for it to happen. I tried to get up and do something too soon. The pain would remind me, we're not finished with you yet.

Monica Phillips (43:26):

Does that relate to your doshas, too.

Marc Holzman (43:27):

I think it's for all doshas. I mean, we're all going to heal. Kaphas have the best immune system. Kapha is Earth, and water. Just a little. Sometimes they can be a little heavy, but they have a larger, they're not fat, but they have a, they have more substance to them. And their immune systems are really, really strong.

Monica Phillips (43:44):

It would be interesting to do a COVID analysis based on dosha type.

Marc Holzman (43:48):

I will tell you very quickly then we can wrap up. I was teaching a retreat probably about five years ago in Mexico, and about midway through it, a horrible airborne virus swept through this little area village where we were doing our retreat. Everybody, townspeople were sick. I mean, including myself, I got up the next day. I was just, Oh, should I even like go up and teach this class? And we had already done ayurveda discussion about the doshas and people did dosha tests. I kind of put them all - they all got into groups of who were the vatas, who were the pittas and who were the kaphas based on their physical type and just all these other markers. The only ones that showed up for the class were all the kaphas.

Monica Phillips (44:26):

Kaphas.

Marc Holzman (44:30):

Every single one. "Were ready to go." I don't feel so great. So it was really interesting that the kind of big-boned, they move slower, more methodical. They're not,

Monica Phillips (44:40):

Well, maybe they have less chatter in their minds too, because they're more methodical,

Marc Holzman (44:44):

They are sort of unflappable. If you hit them with something that could be stressful, they don't go nuts. They kind of take it in a certain stride. Oh, if we can all strive to be kaphas.

Monica Phillips (44:56):

One line go-to for helping people get out of their heads quickly is, I use this constantly, focus on your big toe. I'll be in a coaching session. I'll say, let's all just stop and close your eyes and now focus on your big toe. It's pretty simple and it helps people to shift their energy. Is there something you do? Is there like a five-minute version of yoga nidra that helps people.

Marc Holzman (45:15):

With the breath, but the big toe is actually even better for everybody universally. I wouldn't say just beginners, just because people sometimes even when people have never done yoga before, tuning into the breath, even that can be a little too subtle for them. Whereas putting your concentration, which I think is Dhyana, which you're actually doing a little concentration, a little focus to bring your awareness, bring your attention to your big toe. Now we do do that in yoga nidra as a whole section where we go through each part for a very specific reason, I won't get into all that here, but, but yes, I think for, for your average person, to be able to just focus on one thing as, as gross and food body, as the big toe is great. I usually do breath. And

Monica Phillips (46:01):

And even in five minutes, is that possible?

Marc Holzman (46:04):

Yes, actually I think that what people need to do is close their eyes. You have to start taking the senses inward. And when you start to just be conscious of the breath and breathe a little bit more deeply, remember the mind will start to settle down.

Monica Phillips (46:17):

Well, that's why pratyahara comes after pranayama, I guess, because you've practiced the breath and then you can bring it in.

Marc Holzman (46:23):

And this is also why, just to close out here, these limbs of yoga are all meant to be done together and not compartmentalized. In order to have a really good meditation or a really let's say effective, deep nidra, it's also important to do a little asana. And that's why I do Asana before we do the nidra. We do Asana. We do some pranayama so that when it comes time to sit in meditation or for nidra, to lie down, you're already prepared and you're not stone cold going into it. Like I said earlier, when we first started to have a full day and it'd be like, okay, I'm going to sit now quietly. It's really hard to do so to have pre-practices, just five minutes of pranayama, any kind, just deep ujjayi breath, hold at the top will start to just bring the mind down. It can do wonders.

New Speaker (47:18):

I love yoga. I'm so grateful to you. Thank you.

New Speaker (47:21):

Congratulations on your teacher trainings. We need more like you. To those messages in the wind.

Monica Phillips (47:26):

This has been magical. Thanks for joining me.

Recorded outro (47:28):

Thank for joining me for Yoga Philosophy for Everyday Living. Please learn more about our guests in the show notes and check out their awesome yoga classes. Subscribe, like, and share this podcast with a friend. And please send me your feedback. I would love to hear from you. You can learn more at sparkpluglabs.co.